[Locked] Which was the best sabers clan?

Thanks for the comments yack. I hope you don't take it personal as it wasn't meant to either. I'm giving my view on it. I think VDS was top notch but there are always some good players who will make a stand and you can't take it away from them either. The avarage skill you get in a clan depends on the size of it and i think Prince had a pretty avarage skill when you compare it to other clans with loads of members. I'm glad you guys were there and gave everyone some competition.

Beating me and Tybalt in a 2v2 was not an achievement nova. Beating Hex and Eclipse who actually did play 2v2 regularly was something else. I played duels and i recall you beating me 2-3 times out of 15-20. You beat decent players but had a very hard time beating the best people and that's how i remember you. I guess you got better after i quit or something since i was never around when people chanted your name and claimied you were the best. Don't take it the wrong way mate you were one of the better people around and obviously alot better than me at 2v2's

It's quite strange all this actually. I've been trough the same thing with Q3. I got my ass handed to me over and over but i kept playing. My aim wasn't as good as the best guys had but you could make up for it with tactics and smart play. By consistently playing the best I got pretty good and beat some of the best online which, unfortunately, doesn't really prove anything if you ask me. People moved to other games just like in JK, i lost interest in Q3. Q4 came out and Q3 died pretty fast. It was exactly like JK - the two things that made a difference was the skilllevel in Q3 being very very high compared to JK. If i had to pick JK or Q3 i'd pick JK easily thanks to the outstanding community it had. It can't be compared and booooy the smacktalk that used to go on back then. That was what? 7-8 years ago and i'm still here debating haha. Thanks for being there and giving alot of good memories.

I was thinking it could be alot of fun if someone set a date and arranged a tourney. Everyone could get together, chatwhore, play some sabs nf and the winner had bragging rights until next tourney.

Nothing serious, just a fun gettogether where i could get my ass handed to me

ya a tourny would be a sweet idea,. I'd probally not play in it unless it was durin my spring break however.. or some random weekend when I was home.

anyhow ya I'll agree with vanion on the Nova comment, I don't recall Nova's dominant period, but then again I didn't play Nova constantly.. so I'll just give nova the benefit of the doubt.

I don't recall how good Eclipse was, Hexen was real decent at teams though, the few weeks where he and I teamed, I'd argue we were possibly the best 2v2 combo in the game... at least we never lost a game together.

Oxide and I were a really good team as well.. and before that Axion and I, and before that England and I lol (I think England and I never lost as well)... but I did lose a few games with Ox and Ax.. not many usually the semi's or finals in a tourny.

I can't recall dueling you much vanion,. I wish I would have more,
as Prince got better I really just played Prince members a lot near the later years 2001 and 2002 and that's when I think Prince was the best course no one was around much then.

This thread is broken and needs repairing.

Concerning prince firstly,

I have played this game since 1997, and I had NEVER heard of prince until sometime during mid 1999. This shit you are spouting about prince being up there and one of the best is ridiculous yackman. Get over your pride, wake up and smell the roses and see prince for what it really was: The level before VDS. Unique players who were incidentely prince members through no fault of their own ASCENDED to VDS. This is not psychological eliteness it is FACT and these players would back up this statement too. Youre the one on a psychological trip yackman. You mention all these great players that were in vds and other clans and are like "but look, they started off in prince".

Yeah well everyone starts off as a newbie somewhere and unfortunately because you recruited EVERYBODY most of them were in prince. So I will allow you to make that claim, I just find it funny how you mention great players in your lists, even though they joined left prince usually within the space of 2-3 weeks, as a result making your clan the laughing stock of the zone.

You also said vanion was in prince, which im sure is a lie.

Also I can proudly say I was never in prince.

I also never lost to a person while they were in prince.

Also what was that stupid comment you made about "Syscotic?" and how it was so newbie you cant even remember the name?

Let me tell you something, I personally started S-Y-K-O-T-I-C and I can tell you it absolutely raped the arse off of prince during its peak on the zone. And it is still kicking arse now because it MOVED ON to other games and actually MADE MONEY playing them.

The majority of prince members were young and immature and you claim it was elite, you must be joking. I know you probably wasted a large portion of your life on that clan but please would you stop pissing into everybodies pockets.

But seriously, that comment about syk just proves how ignorant you really are..

Concerning phelan, you were great during your time and regardless of our history I do respect you alot. But I think alot of your opinions on newer sabering styles are biased, probably based on a few bad experiences of dealing with newbies (probably prince). There were players out there who used a faster mouse and actually did know what they were doing. I came from your era too remember, I wanted to keep playing jk so I had to adapt, and willingly left leadership in syk to join VDS. I would not of done this if I didnt feel it was worthwhile.

And everyone is saying nova owned and this and that however during our entire jk time together he could barely land a hit on me. (but nova is still pretty). And like 90% of the players being mentioned here I beat at one time or another.

I dont mean to attack anyone here but seriously yackman think before you write some of this stuff down because you never know who might be reading it.

Oh and rK yes I know who you are (mask), and thanks for the comment.

This is in response to the message posted by Yackman on the first page, my comments are inserted under each listed clan.

"IRN I did look up to back when Prince first emerged in the Full Version scene in early 1998.. but.. I think they were highly overated especially once I improved my skills,..I think a lot of IRN's dominance in ladder was do to 2 good players and the rest of them.. getting wins via them. (Quake for example was one of them and Crusader I suppose was another) DemonKnight was decent at best.. and if I recall right he later joined Prince.. PestControl was OK as well..and the other guys were all just marginal saberists at least to my extent of knowledge. Secondly, IRN disappeared from the JK scene as Prince emerged on an elite basis.

- Your recelected history of IRN is quite far off. I could write five pages displaying full details of exactly who in IRN was a great saberist and during which era.

DE was a fairly good clan., but they emerged during Prince and ended before Prince.. and we out skilled them man for man as a whole...I really don't ever remember looking at DE as anymore than an equal. Many of their members were ex Prince. And like IRN there lifespan was no more than a year.

- Yack just said IRN was around for a year.. I'm not even going to continue this comment.

JCS was good,. especially back when they were around with IRN. However, like IRN they were really a 1 or 2 person clan of great skill.. Dr00me, and that is it. JCS disappeared and reemerged with I'd say less skill than they originally. Bartolo.. one of these reemerging JCS saberists was a former Prince in the late demo days. I think he was even trained by a Prince_Yevaud (the first Prince to really play ladder ever).

- Bartolo was probably one of the worst saberists in JCS's long history. Again, 5 pages could easily outline why JCS was by far the most superior sabers clan in JK history.

KDD is like everyone else a one or two person saberist clan.. characterized by Lonestar.. and the people that were somewhat decent that surrounded him.

- Again, this is incorrect, during late 1999 KDD dominated sabers across the zone and was highly regarded. It's third generation even including VDS and JCS members.

Dsbr i always regarded as more of a Full force sort of clan,..

- I doubt DSbr would want to be considered a sabers nf clan in the first place.

Quest, was good whlie they lasted.. 1 year tops,. there members like all other clans were ex Prince.. and later many of there members joined Prince...

- QuEsT had 4 generations and the majority of the clan was gunners, the few saberists mainly came from KDD, DeltA (gunning clan), and JCS

KTL .. i really don't remember them "

- Mask_KTL by his self could have owned everyone in Prince, almost every KTL member was an accomplished saberist and should be given a great deal of respect and not overlooked so easily.

Since the original poster is unaware of the clan names I will post the correct ones for him.

IRN - The Iron Knights
DE - Dark Empire
JCS - Jedi of the Crimson Star
KDD - Knights of Death and Destruction
DSbr - DarkSaber
QuEsT - same
KTL - Knights of the Light

It is unfair to allow these biased opinions to degrade the historic superiority of these memorable Jedi Knight clans. care

"You may think people who won CWT or whatever those tourneys were called were good but, and be honest, running around with 23 fps on dial-ups that couldn't even handle JK netcode and winning tourneys does not make you good. Ever tried playing JK on LAN? " - Vanion_VDS

Here is my indrect reply

Riddle me this; how can a man, who has never played in a single CWT make direct comments regarding the skill level commited within a CWT game?

Perhaps if you had played Jedi Knight during the timeframe of its true life you would have been able to partake in said CWT matches and understand what losing to someone like DArtagnan in the first round really meant back then.

In summation my emphatical point is that had any of you actually made it to a true CWT finals match your views and inconsequential comments would all be quite different.

- Wodz

Regarding SubZero's post

I agree 100% with his post. Everyone who has ever played Jedi Knight knows that I am unfortunately a JK encyclopedia. I recall there only being 1 "Prince" and 1 "Princess" name in Nar Shaddaa around the end of 1999. Before this period I had never seen this clan mentioned before.

SyK, which I am proud to be a part of, has been around since 1998 and is very well known throughout JK history.

With regards to vanity, there is not a single clan from 1997-2006 that was "elite" and or highly regarded for their skill in any fashion and or form that I am unaware of. Prince was never a reputed clan in any aspect. At best it housed some younger amateurish VDS members.

I have nothing against Prince, since I myself joined as a leisure joke since my little brother KuD requested that I do so. I am mearly stating historical facts, which is what I do best.

- Wodz

vanion in response to your talent comment... if ive ever played any one of you newer generation players, i always heard the same thing... "oh im so rusty" you know what i used to say that too when someone beat me when i was a cocky newbie, hell even some relenquish guy or something said that to me the other day, hilarious since i havnt been an avid nf saberist for over 7 years. and really i remember back in the day, i would come out and play a nf sabs game for shits and giggles, after months of not playing, i'd hear the same crap "man i havnt played in a week im a little rusty" as i sat there and chuckled to myself about the fact i hadnt played in 2+ months yet still i won... i vividly remember beating legacy one time when he was "the man to beat", and he proceeded to tell me that "i havnt had a warmup game yet" which he would use as an excuse to why he lost, again as i havnt played in a month or more. with the exception of legacy cuz he knew who i was, i would usually be called a newbie and that i was lucky by anyone i beat because i didnt play the cookie cutter style that dr00me layed out for the generations to come that were too lazy and uncreative to create and master a style of there own.

i feel like im beating a dead horse cuz every time im making the same argument. but all i can tell you from MY experience, is that i would come out spuratically to play a bgj nf game every so often, maybe 3-4 in a 2 month span. and nova i dont think i ever played you, and if i did it definately wasnt in your prime cuz a generation of players seperate us. but the guys i did play, like drizzt, dr00me, savageginx, dangersun, there was one guy that came over from cali i forget his name... but anyway the list goes on. and you know what, i was a 56k player on a p2 400, playing against guys who for the most part had broadband and better machines, many of them tweaked so much it could make you sick, they were in their prime. and well obviously i wouldnt be talking about this if i hadnt beat them all. so really i have a hard time swallowing your statements cuz i just dont buy it... and in my day i was in no way shape or form the best, but you know what i beat pretty much everyone often, i just couldnt manage to win any cwt's cuz i never had the mental stamina to play focused for that many hours. which is one of the reasons i seperate myself from saying i was hot shit back then. but still i had very little respect for 99% of nf saberists that came after me, because of the fact i could win so easily for not playing often. and as it so happens the first time i ever lost one of those matches was to subzero, after a fairly heated debate with eachother, which ended up in me losing quite badly, which coincidentally was the last time i ever played one of those leisurely "coming out of retirement" matches. but to state my opinion the only thing i needed to adapt about my game later on, was quicker thinking and better anticipation, and alot more patience(well only with the top tier players) in my opinion playing an older style was possible in the new era, all it required was alot of focus and patience. unfortunately i do not have the desire to exhibit either of those qualities at this point in time for a computer game :

anyway in a roundabout way this is a rebuttle to alot of you guys, but especially vanion... if you want to tell me that you are as good now as you were when you lpayed this game daily for hours, then you are kidding yourself... unless you still play bgj nf daily for hours, then i really dont feel the need to justify myself to you heh

and thanks for the comment sub, ya i know we never really saw eye to eye at any point :

and about this rK guy, i dont know if im supposed to know who he is or not but arent aliases in this day and age a little silly?

Phelan...
If you look at his SSes from that link He gave out.You'd know who He was =)
And everyone regarding me.I said I was good,I never said I was the Best.I'm just going by what I was told by people from then.I know I sucked.I did fairly well against you SubSucks =).I Beat people,They beat people.Its the nature of the game.I know I was pretty good back in my Serious JK days.But you know what,Like I said before.After I started doing other stuff outside of JK.I started to get my Ass handed to me.I never meant to sound like I was the Be All of End all in NF Sabs.I'm mature enough to say I think there were people better then me,And people who weren't.Its a game,Life goes on.This could go on and on about who was better then whom.But Sub back to you,You can't say I sucked.I did beat some well known people.And whoever else started to Bash me.I was pretty well known,Maybe for the wrong reasons.But everyone knew me one way or another.I can also admit,I never actually quit JK after all my years of it.I was pretty much around when SubZero first started.I just loved playing JK,Hell I still play it from time to time with people.Everyone knows I like it.I've always liked NF sabs.I never played it to get "elite" And all this other shit.I played it for fun.To much crap gets put on to who was the best and all this other crap.I'm happy that I was allowed in VDS.It was actually pretty cool to wear the Tag.But you know what,The kind of person I was.I knew and I'm sure everyone else knew I wasn't going to stay.I was never Loyal to clans.But anyone who I was friends with should know I was Loyal to people.Like Sub,I knew him back from His and My DOJO days.I'm sure I had a big mouth Hell,I was like 12 when I first started JK,of course I was going to act like a kid,I was one...
Just everyone remember.We(Well most of us) were all part of some Great clans.There were a few that I was proud to be in.I just want to say Every clan in JK should have a place somewhere

Riddle this: since when does participating in a CWT make you good in any way?

Let it go Wodz. You've constantly been mumbling about this and that era, who was best and who wasn't. It's gone to the point where it's just embarrasing for you and i know many that just starts yawning when you start writing essays about JK history on zone... please?

The guys who played CWT did their best with what they had. It's not fair to compare them to what JK was during 2001/2002 but i'd like to anyway. I think the funny part is that if you ask one of them they'd actually be honest and say that they, most likely, wouldn't stand a chance just like in ANY NEW SPORT because that is what any online fps should be compared to. Ask DArtagnan (CS with IRN) to compare his skill now and back when CWT was. Ask DR00ME. Ask AnimuS. Ask the Sykotic guys who played Q3 CTF / RTCW in EC. Still, you go on about it. To me this is just a joke.

I'll be honest. Let's say i am as a "good" as i was back then and i'd face someone with some talent that had kept playing JK during these years in an active and competitive community. Would i win? Definately not. I'd get beaten pretty bad and there is nothing special about it. I hope those who speak of me the same way as Wodz does about the "oldschool" people doesn't see this. CWT was just a small stop where the community (mostly wodz) hyped mediocre players to amazing heights. That's the sad truth.

I guess you think i'm bashing CWT because i didn't participate? I've had my moments. I've won a couple of lan-tournaments in sweden versus the best players in Q3. I finished 3rd in Dreamhack 2003 Q3 1v1 tourney losing to fox and winning $800. I've made about $2900 competing in tourneys and no i wasn't the best. The money I've won is nothing compared to what the really good guys earn. I don't want to be compared to them.

I think it's sad that somone who hasn't realized at this point, with all the big tourneys going on, what JK actually was back during the oh-so-glorious-CWT-days: It was just a new game with a debatable netcode that didn't give room for any major skill. It had somewhat talented players that played a game where your skill played a mediocre role. Unfortunately the netcode didn't change when people got better connections. People had no clue about synching framerate with refreshrates. The updaterate of the mousemovement was awfull and didn't give any room for lock-on aim or serverprediction. It was all clientbased and you could only get to a certain point skillwise.

If anyone asks me if i played any game before Q3 i say "yes i played some crappy star wars fps" and nothing else.

Naturally you think i'm bragging when i explain that i lost 7-8 duels during a whole year. I'm not. It's just a sad fact that the best people could dominate in this way. If you think i was a good player during my prime you should read my post again. The one thing i really miss and that would be even more evidence is JK not having a demorecording function. That would've definately made some people shut it.

Just get over it.

I'm not even going to comment your post this Phelan.

why not vanion? because my post basically disproves your whole argument you made against wodz... and you are an nf saberist you cant comment about the entire game, stick to nf sabers and dont generalize cuz you really have no idea... and its really rich seeing you state facts about an era you wernt around to experience lol, talk about ignorance. you have no idea how good those players were in there prime, at least when i speak what i have to say is actually true, because i was there and i did it. unlike you, who because you possibly beat some guy when he was playing his first game in 2 years, automatically assumes the shit rolls up hill...

ps. its very nice that you read dart and dr00me's name on wodz site, but dont speak for them, and well animus was a nar newbie in 98-99 so really why would we care what he had to say about this particular issue?

You think it took me months for me to realize that JK was as bad as it could get with the above listed problems? Fyi I did play some sabers nf during 97/98 but i spent most of my time playing qw. If i would have wanted to play a decent game where i could aim some i would have picked QW/Q2 - which i did.

You weren't around on qnet at all so you have no clue at all which people used to hang out in #jcs, #irn or #sykotic. Dr00me is from Finland if i recall right (helsinki hostmask). Dart is from the UK.

Time to shut it.

ps. oh i didn't read your post
ps2. didn't one of your guys play q3? logan was his name i think - well it was absolutely embarrasing to see him play with all the "damn we're good"-talk coming from dsbr. Haha, i even remember you guys ranting how good you were at JK:outcast or whatever the game was called that came out after JK df2. A pity no one skilled (or no one for that matter) actually played the game isn't it? Well, keep struggling.

you keep referancing other games like i care, im pretty sure this is a jk df2 board and this is the game we are discussing. why in gods name would you bring up logans quake skills, i really dont see a point to it... does your lack of an argument make you resort to this kind of stuff? the more you write the more you make yourself look like a fish out of water on this topic.

and irns and dh and others were on ETG champ, i know irn would never bow to new schoolers and say you were better why do you have to lie im not stupid i talked with all those guys regularly for years after jk... and you keep saying sykotic but you fail to realize they were admittedly a newbie clan in those days.... and just because you owned the game in that era doesnt mean anything, cuz newbies in general are usually ignorant to whats going on and to the core community that consists of the good players, the only ones that are noteworthy, thats why you have sbx "elites" trash talking basic jk players and such.

also as a side note, i was not around during the jk2 and jk3 days, from what i understood DSbr was the only clan, i was still around for deviant but half of them consisted of ex dsbr who eventually came back. but they stood on the top of the foodchain for both games entire lifespan... but this isnt a clan debate so i dont understand why you would make that comment... oh right! lack of argument i almost forgot.

Okey, champ.

Yeah vanion, no one cares about q3 or w/e, so let's keep it JK.

I was in New york over the weekend.. so I missed out on a lot of the action here haha..I had a huge message. and my comp froze so blaaa im ticked but anyhow.. leme recap briefly what I said:

Wodz - My comments were correct from my perspective b/c I wasn't around in the early days of JK.. thanks for clarifying history that I wasn't clear on though. When I said IRN and DE were around for a year at best I meant from when Prince entered the JK scene in early 1999.
when I said Prince entered Full version in 1998 that was merely a typo I meant early 1999 as shown by:
http://ericyacko.com/prince/history.html

Claiming Bartolo as one of the worst JCS ever is not a fair assessment.. The longer in JCS he played the more his skills improved..in 1999.. . when he joined maybe he was one of the worst JCS ever but he did improve over time.
JCS I wouldn't say was the best sabers clan ever because Prince, a clan that is disputed as not even being elite, at least during Prince's prime competed with them:

(ya England and I destroyed almost everyone as a team early 2000 but still JCS wasn't excluded from that)


(Last 2 screens show Middle of the road Prince's, not even our best of the time, going against JCS probally the middle of the road JCS (Excluding Dr00me who might of sucked in teams for all i know but nevertheless)
Furtherpoint: Java and Immortal both in those screens later on joined Prince..(I think Immortal joined Prince cause we did get a Prince Immortal who spelled his name exactly like that, not too long after that screen was taken, and I'm sure Java joined Prince) both got much better in Prince.. and stuck in Prince for awhile (Immortal over a year and Java at least 6 months if not more).
Prince didn't just lose members to "Elite clans" they also recruited them from..
The fact JCS recieves acclamation and Prince recieves dirt.. it biased based on the different JK perspectives.

Subzero, yes I appologize about Sykotic, I wasn't thinking SyK = Sykotic but that was negligence on my part. Prince did compete with SyK I do argue:
(Prince alliasing lol)

Ya Vanion never joined Prince, I was just guessing the facts of the past without checking for sure..and nor did u. However the fact many VDS came from Prince is no coincidence... it doesn't make Prince elite you are correct.. but it does say the quality of players Prince did bring up..
The VDS that came from Prince were definately in Prince longer than 2-3 weeks that claim that most of the Good Prince weren't in PRince longer than 2-3 weeks is purely Ridiculous.. ok some people weren't in Prince longer than 2-3 weeks I give you that.. but The Majority were in Prince at least 2 - 3 months.. and some even a year.
I could quote names and examples but I needn't not.

Prince always was a rags to riches sorta story.. we weren't the best when all you guys were at your prime and beating up on probally Medicore Prince. After most of the late 2000 early 2001 Prince joined VDS,.. Prince pretty much started from scratch again with nobody but me and a few friends that remained loyal.. namely Ennudo. When Prince started from scratch again no one could argue how goood Prince was then on here because you weren't around then... I THINK we were elite cause it was just me and whoever I wanted in the clan lol. late 2001 throughout 2002. that's when Prince hit its riches and seperated itself from its mediocrity... the Prince that were around then remained loyal almost throughout... If anyone has facts to prove otherwise.. let them present them... I don't have pride; I have examples of the past.

Phelan I agree with you in your statement about Traditional 56 K saberists vs. broadband and new technology saberist.. I Played always on my P2 233 computer.. 56 K.. decent 3d card 32 megs however.. I played a defensive style.. no matter who I went against I was always competetive because of my patience and composure not my "lag". In fact now that I'ved played probally a dozen games on broadband I think if I had it back then my game would of been improved.. but nevertheless I was able to compete with what I had with the best, which speaks something for the old school Traditional JKer, as I was one constantly going against the new tech guy.. sometimes I used the new tech guys style., but mostly I was defensive. Vanion anyhow was one of the best with the new technology.. and I'm sure he could of competed with any of the older guys.. but would of been dominant eh.. probally no better than he could competed against a guy like me.